First of all Milli, I ADORE the "Field of Fucks" picture. I cackled more joyfully than I have for many a year.
I also loved your first three paragraphs. I call those "be kind" hormones the "Doormat Hormones" because they made me into a doormat who could never do enough for others, and boy, twhen those went, there was a MASSIVE shock for my family that lasted for years. We still love each other but those years have gone down in family legend.
And I agree with everythng else. I was sad that the fabulous Janice used the wrong pronouns for Debbie Hayton, but I'd much rather her article was published as it was than not published at all. I am ambivalent about Debbie, but I'm very glad he is not afraid to be honest and that he now uses men's loos. He's also vocal and takes a lot of flack for it, which I respect.
If this is ever going to end, I think we have to be prepared to accept that we will have to compromise. For example, if it was understood, by the law, by hospitals and schools, by the government and everyone else that men are not and cannot ever become women and should never be included in all the places feminists say that matters, then I wouldn't mind using the wrong pronouns in their presence (which would never include in a courtroom, because it is far too misleading, and not the truth) - feminists because they are by definition women with very few fucks to give, and they don't waste them on giving way to men.
I want this to end: we have so many other things to fight about - porn, prostitution, surrogacy, "be kind", prisons, male violence..... the list is so long, and yet we hardly have time to make our case because we are barricading the gates of the citadels that our mothers and grandmothers built for us. We have to get real. We need to refuse to be silenced, then decide on our red lines and win this battle. We will never beat them into submission because we still live in a patriarchy, so we have to decide where we are willing to compromise - and where we are not.
On the other hand we could just dismantle the patriarchy. Now there's a thought. That would take quite a few proverbial fucks.
Excuse me but why aren't you writing a substack? I'm pretty sure that's the second comment of yours I've read recently and thought, this is excellent! Do you write elsewhere? x
Ummm, because I've never thought of it? Because there are brilliant writers like you, or Helen Joyce, who do all your research and write eloquently and clearly, so there seems little need? Because I don't "identify' as a writer? (I'm a singer!) Are those good reasons?
But another good thing about the menopause is thinking time at night. Once you have made your peace with the Grim Reaper (although I prefer a female harbinger of death myself) there is just loads of time to think in peace, and I think some very interesting things - well I think they are anyway. So maybe that's not such a crazy idea Milli. Thank you, for both the compliment and the idea. X
Thank you Milli for another brilliant round up of some current threads in the current trans-situation. For me on the key most toxic things of the whole situation is that, unlike most other situations, different points of view can't be held and indeed welcomed.. Anyone who raises a differing point of view is immediately shot down.. attacked in the most viscious way, merely for acknowledging the complexity of it.. but especially on the core issue that transwomen are men...or my current phrase "men pretending to be women". Because yes, as we all know, they can never be women, and that is what is the delusion that is being sold. So I respect Hayton for being clear on that.. And Helen Joyce in her book Trans also talks about autogynephilia..And I respect Hayton for talking about the difficulties we are creating for children. I think a key aspect of what he says, is that it is about taking responsibility for oneself and not being a victim and demanding rights. especially when those rights take away the rights of others, ie women..
On another note, just to say, please don't buy into the misinformation that you are "low or lacking in oestrogen".. Did you know that it simply is going back to levels we had pre puberty.. ? We don't talk about girls being low in ostrogen.. It's normal for levels to be lower both before and after our reproductive years... it's physiology.. we don't need so much because our bodies aren't maturing eggs and building womb lining.. We have enough oestrogen for us.. to last us till we die.. AND we still keep producing it.. I think the lack, or low can lead us to think we are less strong.. but we are not.. we are perhaps stronger emotionally ..
Ah that's a very good point about the oestrogen. I know people say that it's 'low oestrogen' that makes menopausal women less accommodating? But not sure if there's any truth in that!
And yes, hurrah for nuance and listening to other perspectives xxx
Absolutely Suzanne re Oestrogen - it’s what I used to say about babies and Vitamin K - they are not born with low Vitamin K because they all have these levels… it’s only in comparison with adults that it is low.
I have written about Vit K. I went with the 'evidence based birth' take which is that there are no known risks to the jab / drops but a tiny risk of VKDB without it. Evidence based birth now fully in thrall of the gender woo I note.
yes, my view entirely.....and premature babies I think have less vitamin K than term so there is perhaps a reason...I never gave either of mine Vitamin K.. My bottom line is don't intefere with the physiology unless there is a very strong reason...
I like your “men pretending to be women” phrase. Whilst I also need more “no fucks given” energy, I also don’t want to be intentionally hurtful, so I am mindful of the language I use [although there’s a whole other debate about how “informed” we need to be to hold an opinion which is researched enough to be valid, and not dismissed as ignorant and uneducated] but I find the terms “transwoman” or “transman” confusing; is it a man who is trans? Or a trans man (I.e a woman?) Or vice versa?? Granted often it’s not confusing in context, but the way a lot of things are written these days by other authors (adopting different pronouns) and taking about multiple different trans people I get confused as to who is being talked about and which way rounds things are. And I’m not stupid - imagine how confusing all this is for children!
Yes that's a whole other dimension to the vocab and pronouns thing, a lot of people DO think that it's a woman if they say trans woman and use female pronouns, so therefore get completely lost. And that's the adults! x
Never forget that blurring the boundaries and denying facts are a necessary component of all of these applied postmodern philosophies. They are designed to be deliberately chaotic and destructive, which is fully intentional as a way to keep us in line and feeling inferior to the "experts".
I agree with you.. it is confusing is a transman a woman etc... women can pretend to be men too if they want.. but it is confusing also switching between he and her or they etc etc...I remember when I was reading Helen Joyce's book I got confused which is why I think it doesn't work!... Of course I support anyone to do what they want, but they also need to take responsibility for their choices...
"depleted not only of oestrogen, but also of patience and time" brilliant line 😂 please give me some of this menopausal energy!! I need to care less about what people think...
I keep thinking about this article, it's so good. It also shows the benefits of Substack over Twitter (or X), the latter being a place of cheap shots and sound bites... Substack is a place where we can engage with thoughtful arguments like this. Trying to spend more time on here than there... Thank you for what you do, Milli!
I do so agree, it's much better here. It's so complex all this that we need more words and also a bit of gatekeeping - I limit my comments to paid subscribers, I don't care if that means it's an echo chamber, I know that I don't have to get abused and that makes it worthwhile for me! I also think twitter does have a value in letting anyone comment who wants to, it can be a good place to hear other perspectives but you don't always want that, especially if their perspective is that you are a hateful bigot of course!
I know a few devoted Christian’s and their kindness is astonishing and moving . However there must be a consequence to such generosity which is seemingly never ending and I wonder what’s Stephanie’s gig as she’s seems to have done all the compromising .
I’m also finding I have fewer fucks to give but notice whilst my peers may as well this doesn’t translate as confidence to demonstrate so it remains internalised .
Gosh no, not only did she agree with me the other hairdresser in the salon joined in too 💪🏻🎉
Sadly her brother in law who is only 21 and has learning difficulties has somehow convinced himself that he is a woman, he's 6'4" and very confused about everything. The narrative is getting so many.
It's reassuring to find that pretty much everyone I speak to would be classed as a terf really - I am quite dreading the day I meet someone with an alternate viewpoint!!
I've not spoken to one single person about this subject in the real world who didn't think the whole trans thing is utter bullshit, and I've had quite a few conversations now!
Also Milli - beware…☺️ at your age I so didn’t give a fuck that I left my husband of almost 30 years, changed my name - soon after I met someone else, married and went to live on an island off grid for more than 3 years… oh wait… did I say beware? Best thing I ever did. We’ve just celebrated 12 years together…
haha I think about doing something along those lines often - but I do have three children still at home so I'm unlikely to leave them! I've never been married. I wonder if I ever will be at this point! x
My offspring were all in their 20s… which for me too was a sticking point for earlier considerations. It was all amicable though - ex said it was the best thing I ever did for him too. 😬
Of course there is a theory (and some evidence) that most of the women burned as witches were middle aged and mouthy… witches definitely do not give a fuck - and the fab historian Ronald Hutton says that Witchcraft is the only ‘religion’ that is truly feminist.
Hear, hear for the power of not only menopause, but for not giving a fuck! For those of you who enjoy a bit of radical cross stitch, I highly recommend this site (and I have completed the project in this link): https://subversivecrossstitch.com/products/empty-box-of-fucks
How is it "kind" to lie to children about something as important as sex? Either that they can choose what they "want" to be or that that very tall person with a five o'clock shadow is a woman?
And when it comes to birth and breastfeeding groups "kindly" supporting "everyone" to breastfeed, you end up obligated to support natal males "breastfeeding" formula through an SNS (breaking that essential mother/baby dyad) or engaging in what is medical experimentation on babies, who cannot consent to anything that adults choose to do. https://lucyleader.substack.com/p/erasing-mothers-erasing-relationships
Every male (because the whole trans crap thing is just a men's rights movement in drag) definition of "be kind" means that women are subjected to self-harming practices and gaslighting on an industrial scale. "It is women who are now being forcibly colonized by men." https://lucyleader.substack.com/p/the-final-frontier-is-not-space
The phrase "her penis" should be banned from being use in any circumstances anywhere, ever.
I think it is a way of undermining menopausal and postmenopausal women, like we don't have enough of something... In any case I also object to it all being reduced to hormonal changes.. it's way more complex than that!!!!....and are all menopausal women less accomodating.. that could also be seen as a slight put down.. It's as we age, we are less prepared to put up with things.. what's wrong with that.. and we come to speak our truth ... why is that seen as not been accomodating?.. because we are changing and becoming stronger?
First of all Milli, I ADORE the "Field of Fucks" picture. I cackled more joyfully than I have for many a year.
I also loved your first three paragraphs. I call those "be kind" hormones the "Doormat Hormones" because they made me into a doormat who could never do enough for others, and boy, twhen those went, there was a MASSIVE shock for my family that lasted for years. We still love each other but those years have gone down in family legend.
And I agree with everythng else. I was sad that the fabulous Janice used the wrong pronouns for Debbie Hayton, but I'd much rather her article was published as it was than not published at all. I am ambivalent about Debbie, but I'm very glad he is not afraid to be honest and that he now uses men's loos. He's also vocal and takes a lot of flack for it, which I respect.
If this is ever going to end, I think we have to be prepared to accept that we will have to compromise. For example, if it was understood, by the law, by hospitals and schools, by the government and everyone else that men are not and cannot ever become women and should never be included in all the places feminists say that matters, then I wouldn't mind using the wrong pronouns in their presence (which would never include in a courtroom, because it is far too misleading, and not the truth) - feminists because they are by definition women with very few fucks to give, and they don't waste them on giving way to men.
I want this to end: we have so many other things to fight about - porn, prostitution, surrogacy, "be kind", prisons, male violence..... the list is so long, and yet we hardly have time to make our case because we are barricading the gates of the citadels that our mothers and grandmothers built for us. We have to get real. We need to refuse to be silenced, then decide on our red lines and win this battle. We will never beat them into submission because we still live in a patriarchy, so we have to decide where we are willing to compromise - and where we are not.
On the other hand we could just dismantle the patriarchy. Now there's a thought. That would take quite a few proverbial fucks.
Excuse me but why aren't you writing a substack? I'm pretty sure that's the second comment of yours I've read recently and thought, this is excellent! Do you write elsewhere? x
Awww, thank you Milli!
Ummm, because I've never thought of it? Because there are brilliant writers like you, or Helen Joyce, who do all your research and write eloquently and clearly, so there seems little need? Because I don't "identify' as a writer? (I'm a singer!) Are those good reasons?
But another good thing about the menopause is thinking time at night. Once you have made your peace with the Grim Reaper (although I prefer a female harbinger of death myself) there is just loads of time to think in peace, and I think some very interesting things - well I think they are anyway. So maybe that's not such a crazy idea Milli. Thank you, for both the compliment and the idea. X
I thought the same thing about her being a great writer!
Thank you Milli for another brilliant round up of some current threads in the current trans-situation. For me on the key most toxic things of the whole situation is that, unlike most other situations, different points of view can't be held and indeed welcomed.. Anyone who raises a differing point of view is immediately shot down.. attacked in the most viscious way, merely for acknowledging the complexity of it.. but especially on the core issue that transwomen are men...or my current phrase "men pretending to be women". Because yes, as we all know, they can never be women, and that is what is the delusion that is being sold. So I respect Hayton for being clear on that.. And Helen Joyce in her book Trans also talks about autogynephilia..And I respect Hayton for talking about the difficulties we are creating for children. I think a key aspect of what he says, is that it is about taking responsibility for oneself and not being a victim and demanding rights. especially when those rights take away the rights of others, ie women..
On another note, just to say, please don't buy into the misinformation that you are "low or lacking in oestrogen".. Did you know that it simply is going back to levels we had pre puberty.. ? We don't talk about girls being low in ostrogen.. It's normal for levels to be lower both before and after our reproductive years... it's physiology.. we don't need so much because our bodies aren't maturing eggs and building womb lining.. We have enough oestrogen for us.. to last us till we die.. AND we still keep producing it.. I think the lack, or low can lead us to think we are less strong.. but we are not.. we are perhaps stronger emotionally ..
Keep the good work going.. thanks...
Ah that's a very good point about the oestrogen. I know people say that it's 'low oestrogen' that makes menopausal women less accommodating? But not sure if there's any truth in that!
And yes, hurrah for nuance and listening to other perspectives xxx
Absolutely Suzanne re Oestrogen - it’s what I used to say about babies and Vitamin K - they are not born with low Vitamin K because they all have these levels… it’s only in comparison with adults that it is low.
I have written about Vit K. I went with the 'evidence based birth' take which is that there are no known risks to the jab / drops but a tiny risk of VKDB without it. Evidence based birth now fully in thrall of the gender woo I note.
yes, my view entirely.....and premature babies I think have less vitamin K than term so there is perhaps a reason...I never gave either of mine Vitamin K.. My bottom line is don't intefere with the physiology unless there is a very strong reason...
I like your “men pretending to be women” phrase. Whilst I also need more “no fucks given” energy, I also don’t want to be intentionally hurtful, so I am mindful of the language I use [although there’s a whole other debate about how “informed” we need to be to hold an opinion which is researched enough to be valid, and not dismissed as ignorant and uneducated] but I find the terms “transwoman” or “transman” confusing; is it a man who is trans? Or a trans man (I.e a woman?) Or vice versa?? Granted often it’s not confusing in context, but the way a lot of things are written these days by other authors (adopting different pronouns) and taking about multiple different trans people I get confused as to who is being talked about and which way rounds things are. And I’m not stupid - imagine how confusing all this is for children!
Yes that's a whole other dimension to the vocab and pronouns thing, a lot of people DO think that it's a woman if they say trans woman and use female pronouns, so therefore get completely lost. And that's the adults! x
ah yes you said and think the same as me!..
Never forget that blurring the boundaries and denying facts are a necessary component of all of these applied postmodern philosophies. They are designed to be deliberately chaotic and destructive, which is fully intentional as a way to keep us in line and feeling inferior to the "experts".
I agree with you.. it is confusing is a transman a woman etc... women can pretend to be men too if they want.. but it is confusing also switching between he and her or they etc etc...I remember when I was reading Helen Joyce's book I got confused which is why I think it doesn't work!... Of course I support anyone to do what they want, but they also need to take responsibility for their choices...
"depleted not only of oestrogen, but also of patience and time" brilliant line 😂 please give me some of this menopausal energy!! I need to care less about what people think...
How old are you? Maybe it's coming your way soon (plus the chin hairs) 😂
I keep thinking about this article, it's so good. It also shows the benefits of Substack over Twitter (or X), the latter being a place of cheap shots and sound bites... Substack is a place where we can engage with thoughtful arguments like this. Trying to spend more time on here than there... Thank you for what you do, Milli!
I do so agree, it's much better here. It's so complex all this that we need more words and also a bit of gatekeeping - I limit my comments to paid subscribers, I don't care if that means it's an echo chamber, I know that I don't have to get abused and that makes it worthwhile for me! I also think twitter does have a value in letting anyone comment who wants to, it can be a good place to hear other perspectives but you don't always want that, especially if their perspective is that you are a hateful bigot of course!
I know a few devoted Christian’s and their kindness is astonishing and moving . However there must be a consequence to such generosity which is seemingly never ending and I wonder what’s Stephanie’s gig as she’s seems to have done all the compromising .
I’m also finding I have fewer fucks to give but notice whilst my peers may as well this doesn’t translate as confidence to demonstrate so it remains internalised .
Yes I did wonder if it was that Christian thing of not leaving a marriage EVER. If so that's bloody awful :-(
I've had that conversation with my hairdresser too 😂
Did you get a Revenge Mullet? 😂
Gosh no, not only did she agree with me the other hairdresser in the salon joined in too 💪🏻🎉
Sadly her brother in law who is only 21 and has learning difficulties has somehow convinced himself that he is a woman, he's 6'4" and very confused about everything. The narrative is getting so many.
Yes my hairdresser actually started terfing out on me without even being prompted!
Sorry to hear about her brother in law. How complicated. :-(
It's reassuring to find that pretty much everyone I speak to would be classed as a terf really - I am quite dreading the day I meet someone with an alternate viewpoint!!
I've not spoken to one single person about this subject in the real world who didn't think the whole trans thing is utter bullshit, and I've had quite a few conversations now!
Also Milli - beware…☺️ at your age I so didn’t give a fuck that I left my husband of almost 30 years, changed my name - soon after I met someone else, married and went to live on an island off grid for more than 3 years… oh wait… did I say beware? Best thing I ever did. We’ve just celebrated 12 years together…
haha I think about doing something along those lines often - but I do have three children still at home so I'm unlikely to leave them! I've never been married. I wonder if I ever will be at this point! x
My offspring were all in their 20s… which for me too was a sticking point for earlier considerations. It was all amicable though - ex said it was the best thing I ever did for him too. 😬
Well who knows what the future holds ;-) xx
Of course there is a theory (and some evidence) that most of the women burned as witches were middle aged and mouthy… witches definitely do not give a fuck - and the fab historian Ronald Hutton says that Witchcraft is the only ‘religion’ that is truly feminist.
Hear, hear for the power of not only menopause, but for not giving a fuck! For those of you who enjoy a bit of radical cross stitch, I highly recommend this site (and I have completed the project in this link): https://subversivecrossstitch.com/products/empty-box-of-fucks
How is it "kind" to lie to children about something as important as sex? Either that they can choose what they "want" to be or that that very tall person with a five o'clock shadow is a woman?
And when it comes to birth and breastfeeding groups "kindly" supporting "everyone" to breastfeed, you end up obligated to support natal males "breastfeeding" formula through an SNS (breaking that essential mother/baby dyad) or engaging in what is medical experimentation on babies, who cannot consent to anything that adults choose to do. https://lucyleader.substack.com/p/erasing-mothers-erasing-relationships
Every male (because the whole trans crap thing is just a men's rights movement in drag) definition of "be kind" means that women are subjected to self-harming practices and gaslighting on an industrial scale. "It is women who are now being forcibly colonized by men." https://lucyleader.substack.com/p/the-final-frontier-is-not-space
The phrase "her penis" should be banned from being use in any circumstances anywhere, ever.
I think it is a way of undermining menopausal and postmenopausal women, like we don't have enough of something... In any case I also object to it all being reduced to hormonal changes.. it's way more complex than that!!!!....and are all menopausal women less accomodating.. that could also be seen as a slight put down.. It's as we age, we are less prepared to put up with things.. what's wrong with that.. and we come to speak our truth ... why is that seen as not been accomodating?.. because we are changing and becoming stronger?
My thoughts are that pronouns are ‘a gateway drug’ to a greater complicity in the movement. And that is my problem with them.